Mind Over Medium
A Podcast for artists who want to make money doing what they love. Each week you will learn how to attract your ideal commissions, approach galleries for representation, have a great online launch of your work and how to do it all with less overwhelm and confusion. You will hear from amazing artists who will share how they have built their successful creative businesses. My hope is to create a space where artists and the creative curious can learn about one of the most important tools creative entrepreneurs need in their tool box, their mindset.
Mind Over Medium
Unleashing the Power of Creative Coaching: Insights from Jessica Dance
Are you ready to elevate your creative entrepreneurship? In an insightful conversation with Jessica Dance - artist, coach, and collaborator with numerous high-profile brands - we delve into the challenges and victories of managing a creative business. Jessica generously shares her wisdom on maintaining balance, making artful decisions, and handling workloads with grace - all crucial insights for thriving as an artist in today's fast-paced world.
If you've ever felt stuck or overwhelmed in your creative journey, this episode is for you. We unpack the importance of mindset and the power of self-coaching in navigating through challenging periods. From overcoming limiting beliefs to building self-belief and learning to let go, we cover the essential steps to empower yourself to make choices that align with your personal goals. Jessica also extends an invitation to her 12-week course, Artful Decision Making, which aims to transform scattered dreams into focused success.
We also discuss practical strategies for business growth, making connections, and following up with potential clients. After all, success is about more than just creating good work; it's about collaborating with great people and consistently putting yourself out there. As we celebrate self-worth and reflect on achievements, we underscore the need for recognizing and celebrating personal victories. There's even a sneak peek into Jessica Dance's work and how to reach out to her. Tune in to this inspiring conversation and take your creative entrepreneurship to the next level.
Connect with Jessica on IG and on her website
Get on the waitlist for Artful Decision Making HERE
Connect with Lea Ann on Instagram
Welcome to Mind Over Medium, a podcast for artists who want to make money doing what they love. When you tune in a twink, you will learn how to attract your ideal commissions, approach galleries for representation, have a great online launch of your work, and how to do it all with less overwhelm and confusion. You will have the opportunity to hear from amazing artists who will share how they have built their successful creative businesses. My hope is to create a space where artists and the creative curious can gather to learn about one of the most important tools creative entrepreneurs need in their toolbox their mindset. Thanks so much for tuning in to Mind Over Medium podcast. Let's get started.
Speaker 1:Hi everyone, before we get into today's episode, I wanted to let you know that the waitlist is now open for my 12 week course Artful Decision Making how to transform your artistic journey from scattered dreams to focused success. If you feel like you are stuck on the hamster wheel, would love not only some support, but practical tools to create a business that makes you feel overjoyed more than overwhelmed. You should get on the list and I will offer special pricing for people on the waitlist, so you should definitely sign up. The link will be in my show notes and on my website. So head on over to leanslotkincom to sign up. Today I am so happy and honored to be chatting with Jessica Dance. Jessica is a creative powerhouse. She identifies as a multi-passionate entrepreneur who has collaborated with many high profile brands like Bogue, google, selfridges, bbc, christian Louboutin, just to name a few. And she's also a coach who helps other creative entrepreneurs with their mindset and business. And I can't forget to mention we are dear friends. I appreciate you being here today.
Speaker 2:Hi, thank you for the lovely intro.
Speaker 1:So nice to see you. I know it's always so good to see you. Just so the listeners can get to know you, I'd like for you to answer two questions for me. Is that cool? Yeah, yes, go for it. All right. The first one is a multi-step question. So introduce yourself. Who are you, when do you live and what do you do?
Speaker 2:I'm definitely going to forget.
Speaker 1:I will remind you.
Speaker 2:So I'm Jessica Dance, I am an artist and I'm a coach for creative entrepreneurs and I live in Southwest London in the UK. And I've forgotten the third question.
Speaker 1:No, you did it. Who you are, where do you live and what do you do? Great, done it. Smasht it, done Check. And what does an average day look like for you?
Speaker 2:There is no average daily. It changes all the time. It really varies. It depends what I'm working on. Typically the start of the week I do a lot of my coaching, so I'll see clients one to one, and then towards the end of the week, that's when I work my commissions. So I try and have some separation between the two. I feel like it really requires different levels of energy for me to coach versus create. So yeah, I do try and divide the two up. But sometimes I'm working in my studio, sometimes I'm out and about, maybe I'm doing talks, I've got meetings. So it's pretty varied and I really love the variation, typically half coaching, half creating. I really love the balance and the mix of the two.
Speaker 1:Nice, yeah, I had to figure out. It took me a while to figure that balance out and I feel like it's always a work in process. Was that hard for you to do?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I definitely is always tweaking and changing and I find like also, I'm very affected by the seasons. I feel very my energy levels are very different in the summer versus in the winter. So I really my schedule and what my days look like. I really listen to my body, see how I'm feeling and work with that rather than being like this is what I do. But I'm always it's always evolving and always changing and trying to find things that work better for me.
Speaker 2:If I know that I work better, I know that I coach better in the mornings or early in the day. I don't coach in the evenings because typically that's when I'm going to be most at my sleepiest and some people do their best work in the evenings and I always say to my clients do what feels good to you, and then I'm having to remind myself of this all the time to be like oh yeah, work with myself rather than against myself. But, like in the summer, I know that I'm much better early mornings and some I get up, I'll train early, I'll go for a walk really early. In the winter I tend to shift things along a little bit when there's a bit more daylight, so I might train in the mornings in the gym and then go for my walk a little bit later when it's a bit lighter.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I do find obviously, being an artist and a coach as it can be there can definitely be some challenges, because you can't always control, like, when your deadlines are like, yes, we can put things in place so that we know, okay, I can deliver by this day, but sometimes there are those jobs that we really want to do that are a bit of a push for us. So, okay, whilst my ideal day is just coaching or just creating, it's okay, sometimes I will do both and I will have to make the allowances for that. And yeah, like you say, it's just figuring out what you've got going on at the time, what needs to be done, when and what do you want to do with what feels good to you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think, giving yourself grace and realizing that one of the things I think that draws us to this work is the flexibility, which can be a blessing and a curse from time to time.
Speaker 2:I've found definitely, there's so much freedom in it. But I think a lot of people, a lot of people on the outside, think, oh, that's so great, you get to do what you want when you want and yes, we do. But also I think there's a tendency for us to be really hard on ourselves, to be like I should be working all the time, I should be creating all the time, and we don't have to do that. But it is like this, it's this constant, like checking in with yourself and going, okay, what do I need right now, what does my body need, what does my business need? And getting that balance. But yeah, you're right, it is a blessing and a curse and I think I love I absolutely love the freedom that I have within my job and what I do, but it's a balance. There's other things that are really tough, that come with it as well, and sometimes those are those self-imposed deadlines, those projects that we really want to do, and there's a tight deadline and actually our schedule is already pretty full.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah. You've described your path as being one that looked one way on the outside but felt much different for you living it out. And if people saw you they would think that, oh, she's got it all figured out and a lot of ways you did. But in your bio it said you had a lot of fear and you were working very long hours. Was there a specific moment when you realized what you're doing wasn't sustainable?
Speaker 2:I think it was more like a buildup. It was like, over time, I found I was getting more and more tired, more and more burnt out and I wasn't like fully. I felt, yeah, the things that I wanted, the things that I dreamed of, the clients I really wanted to work with, I'd get the job. And I still wasn't feeling great and I was like, wait a minute, I was meant to feel good when I got this and I'm like no, and that's where the inner work comes in. And I think I was so long I was taking all the action but I wasn't taking care of my mindset, like I really I didn't even it didn't enter my head to do that. It was like, okay, I just need to take action and achieve and everything's going to be great.
Speaker 2:As soon as I got to that point where I it was probably over about maybe a year and a half when I started to feel really like exhausted and started to feel really, oh God, maybe I shouldn't be doing this Like I thought I loved the work, like something's wrong, all of that. It took time, I think, for me to realize that there was nothing. Necessarily it wasn't the work that was the problem, it was my approach to it, it was my energy, it was my attitude towards it. I was blaming a lot of things outside of me and blaming my circumstances and thinking, okay, this is really hard, the industry is really hard, rather than checking in with myself and being like, how am I thinking about this, what are these thoughts and what are these thoughts creating for me?
Speaker 2:And I'm so glad that I started to do that kind of work and look into like self-help and things like that, because I started to realize, okay, I don't need to change my job, I need to change the way I'm thinking about it, and that really was a change for me. That really was a big shift and it took time, it wasn't overnight, but it just. I'm so glad I discovered that because I wouldn't still be creating now and I absolutely love creating. Did you ask me something else? Was there?
Speaker 1:No, just as you were talking. It made me think about this is as when you're working with an artist, when they're building their business or up leveling their business. This is a sticking point where they reach a certain level of success. In my opinion, you can tell me if you think this is true as well. They reach a certain level of success. They're like, but this doesn't feel like I thought it would because, just like what you said, and we're not taught to check our thinking, check the old stories we're telling ourselves like people I'm a perfectionist or I'm a black and white thinker, all these things that we tell ourselves and we just believe that it's true. Hard stop, this is true. We don't question those thoughts. When you start questioning things and you create that little bit of space and you're thinking, that's when the other possibilities can come in, is that what you?
Speaker 2:see too. Exactly, yeah, exactly. And I love what you said about creating that little space, creating that wiggle room of okay, I thought this was fact. I thought I had to be a struggling artist. It was always going to be hard and even when you are making a shit ton of money. That was the first thing I meant to ask you am I allowed to swear on your podcast? 100%? You know me. I was going to say, of course, just checking, yeah, this creating that wiggle room.
Speaker 2:So you have a thought, you have a belief. For example, like you have, if you're going to be an artist and be successful as in I say, successful it's subjective pulling your art, making a lot of money you think, okay, I've got to be a struggling artist first. You have not got to do that. Like you have not got to be a struggling artist. Like when we but I lived into that, I had that belief and that was how I lived. Yeah, and sometimes I get jobs in and I'm still doing. I might not often anymore, but occasionally there's your job where I'm like that was really long hours and that was a little bit crazy.
Speaker 2:But what I always do now is I come back to it and go. That was a choice. Nobody made me do that. That was a choice. It's not because I'm an artist. I had to do that. It's because I had other commitments that I wanted to show up for and I really loved the idea of doing that commission and I really wanted to produce it. So I chose to do those late nights that feels so different to I have to do it. I've got to do it because it's that I've got to. I have to.
Speaker 2:That's when we feel like exhausted, run down, we feel powerless. All these things are a choice. That's so empowering and you're so much more excited to show up and do work when we go. Everything I'm doing in my life is a choice, everything I'm thinking is a choice, but when we're giving our power away and going, I have to do this. It has to be that. This way, the creative industry is really tough. It feels like shit, it's really draining and it's going to have you feeling burnt out and wanting to quit. So that is just show up so differently, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2:And I'm not advocating like for working crazy hours and working all night and all of that stuff, like I rarely do that now, but on the other occasion I do, and sometimes, yeah, no, that's not for me anymore and it's just the universe reminding me Okay, actually, no, we don't want to work like that. I think it's the case of like when we do things and when we are taking on commissions and maybe it's not what we thought it was or we're feeling really exhausted rather than just being like I really messed this up. I really messed this up, it's okay, what do I want to do here? What do I want to choose here? What do I want to do differently? Rather than got to do it, I've said I'm doing it now and then really just feeling awful until the project is complete. I actually get that feeling differently because I think, ultimately I don't know if you find the same I feel like I'm always learning. Oh my gosh. Yes, I've been in the conversations that we have.
Speaker 2:We have very good WhatsApp conversations, excellent Do you know what we haven't had in a while, the words which I say to you that you're like what is that word? And you say those to me and I'm like what are you talking about?
Speaker 1:I was just thinking about that. I wish we could save those. We should have saved those. What does this mean? We both speak English, but A very different English.
Speaker 2:sometimes I can't think of a good example now. We haven't had one for a while.
Speaker 1:I know, I remember just crying, laughing over those. We've got to keep that up.
Speaker 2:We're going to have to think of someone put them in the show notes.
Speaker 1:Yes, I really wish Does WhatsApp save your conversations? I don't think it does.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it does. But I mean we've got a good 36 hours to get through of our voices. It's a really long podcast. Just put them all in. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:I've clearly forgotten where it's going with that now. Yeah, I totally lost the thread, Big surprise. So let me ask a question and then if you remember where you were going with that just let me know.
Speaker 1:So how would you help an artist struggling with this exact thing, like with limiting beliefs, or because I find that it's a what is it? Simple, not easy. Yes, changing your thoughts. Yeah, not even changing, not like thought swapping this is good, this is bad, no, this is good, like. How would you help an artist struggling with limiting beliefs or this kind of thinking?
Speaker 2:I think that's such a good way to put it. Yeah, simple, but not easy, because on paper it's really bloody simple Just believe something else. But you have to build that belief first. So that's nothing that you touched on, of not thought swapping, so we can all go. Okay, I think the creative industry is really hard. Okay, just don't think that anymore and you can tell yourself okay, I think the creative industry is easy, but we don't actually believe that. You need to believe it in your body first.
Speaker 2:And this is the biggest thing and I think this is the thing that I love about how we both coach and how we learn to coach as well. We don't just give the action steps, it's the mindset and strategy. That's what I love to put together as mindset and strategy, but firstly that mindset, because I really see that as that's our foundations, that we want to build on that, because then that creates sustainable change. So when we go back and look at, okay, what are our current beliefs? I think that's the first step is looking at what our current beliefs are and going okay, I'm going to take ownership of these. These are what I currently have.
Speaker 2:Money is hard and the creative industry is scary. I never get permissions or I'm never going to make enough money. What we want to do is we want to sit in those for too long, but actually it's almost like facing up to them, going oh yeah, they're there because they are running quietly in the background all the time, and half the time we don't even know. So that's what I do with my clients is going in and actually being like let's see what's going on in there. Let's see what's in there, with no judgment, it's just an observation and we're just witnessing. Okay, what's in there, what will we talk growing up? Because ultimately this is our conditioning. This is a lot of it is inherited, it's ingested kind of beliefs from childhood, growing up, family school, all of that stuff. And sometimes those beliefs serve us a lot of the times and for many of the people that come to me, they don't serve us. We want to get rid of those and not in a way of ignoring them. They've got to go. We acknowledge them, we go oh yeah, didn't even know that was there, that was running quietly in the background. For me, acknowledge, release them and go. That's not my stuff. Do you know what? You can have that back and some times because of the hand pinpoint when we were told something. I've definitely done this and I will do it in my head and visualise it and go do you know what? All of this stuff, all of this shit, that's yours, that's not mine. That's a nice feeling to do that. So that's like the first step.
Speaker 2:And then we start to look at okay, what do you need to believe to get to the goal that you want to achieve? Yeah, what thoughts would you need to be thinking? And sometimes my clients will say to me like, okay, I need to believe that I can work on this. It's possible for me to work on this amazing commission for this amazing brand. It's cool. Okay, so we know where you want to travel to now. We know where you want to go.
Speaker 2:But then sometimes it can feel like a bit too much of a stretch straight away to start practising that belief. So what I always recommend is like really looking at okay, we want it to feel like a stretch, we want it to feel like exciting and a bit scary, and if it feels like you know what, that's utter bullshit. I don't believe that, I'm just saying in my head that's when we just want to bring it back a bit. So you might even just want to reword it and go okay, that belief it could be. It might be possible that one day I can work with this brand and work on the commission. So practice believing it. And when I say practice believing, we want to feel that belief in our body. We want to actually sit there and visualise it. Picture it. What would it feel like to have achieved that? I love doing this.
Speaker 2:It's such a nice exercise because it feels, exciting Like that really lights me up and it shows us the power of our mind. Nothing has actually happened. We've thought something and we've physically felt it in our body. So other ones don't know what's real and what isn't. So when we do this, we're directing ourselves, we're directing our brain to show us where we want to go, and then our brain gets in line and goes okay, so that's what I need to look out for. And it starts showing us all of the almost like returning all the relevant search results to what we've just put in the search bar, which is it might be possible. So when we're thinking it's not possible, it's really hard, this is never going to happen for me Our brain is going to show us that it's okay, this is what she's looking for. So we get more of that. Oh, when we start to, when they start to. Should I say that bit again?
Speaker 1:No, I'm tracking, it's all good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so when we are believing, when we keep thinking, okay, this is not possible, this is really hard, all of this stuff, your brain is going to return those search results to you. It's going to show you all the evidence that are going to confirm your thoughts. When you start to think, actually, this might be possible, that I might be able to do this one day, your brain is going to return search results which are relevant to that. So it's going to show you all the evidence that, yeah, this might be possible and we start spotting new opportunities and our brain is filtering out the stuff that's no longer relevant to those thoughts. Really, that's why we want to pay attention to that mindset and that's why, when we're building belief, we want to take ownership of what we have been believing and let go of that. Just really start to notice it.
Speaker 2:Half the time we don't know what half of those old beliefs are. So, yeah, bringing those to the surface and letting go of those, deciding what we want to believe and where we want to be, finding that belief. That feels a little bit stretchy for us. It feels exciting, but not totally terrifying and totally unbelievable. Yeah, practice, we practice that belief. We practice thinking and feeling in our bodies and just see what starts to shift. And then we inch away closer and closer to that goal that we want of. It's definitely possible for me to work with this brand and, yeah, that's a fun process and I do have a I'll send you a link to it a post that kind of on my blog which walks you through those steps. So I'll send you a rough show.
Speaker 1:I'll include it. And I find, too, when someone's just starting this work, they often think that they need to figure out where that old information came from, and I don't know if that's always necessary in coaching. If it's something big, I'm always like therapy, yeah, therapy. It's different because for our work as coaches we want to look forward, and I don't know if it's always useful to take the time in coaching to pinpoint like where did I learn that? Yeah, my self-worth, or whatever. But then I'm like, yes, you might need to go. Have you been to therapy? So it can be a nice collaboration between the two things if necessary.
Speaker 2:Definitely yeah.
Speaker 2:I think, that you work really nicely together. And what I always say to my clients, it depends on, like, your experience and what's the time, and a lot of the time sometimes, what I how I, always do is okay, we'll dip into the past. We might sit there for a minute to make sense of some things, to all make a context and then decide how we want to move forward. Yes, however, if it seems like there has been something which is perhaps traumatic, that is actually something which is quite stressful, or it's like activating my clients, like central nervous system, and I see that there's more to this, it's like that. I think that's a different thing then that is when it's okay, that needs to be worked through. I would say most of this, and sometimes it does come up, but I would say, most of the time, it's a case of you know what. We can use that as our context and go oh, of course, we can use it as a great time to be compassionate with ourselves and go yes, I've also been showing up like this because this thing happened to me those years ago. Oh, this makes total sense now why I've been doing that, and it's a great way to just forgive ourselves and go oh yeah, that thing happened and that was really shitty or that thing didn't work out and that really affected me and that really knocked me back. Okay, let's acknowledge that and let's make space for that and make space for that.
Speaker 2:Perhaps it's sadness or rejection, and moving forward, but I'm the same as you. I always think if there's something which feels like it's a lot deeper rooted and it needs to be worked through, then I would always recommend therapy. And I've got, I've had many clients who do both and I think it's great. They complement each other Therapy and coaching. But I always put it like coaching is for when you are functioning but you want to function at a higher level, and I think that's quite a nice way to put it. And yeah, we did get to the past, but it's mostly future focused. Yeah, agreed.
Speaker 1:When you're feeling overwhelmed, what do you think or do to move through it?
Speaker 2:Normally, what I need to do is I have my trusty notebook, which I'm just looking at, next to me my trusty notebook and I write down what is in my head.
Speaker 2:I need to empty my brain out and there's still times now when I go, you know I haven't got time and I think after myself afterwards because I know that's exactly what I need to do. It's counterproductive to keep on trying to push through. So I will empty my brain out onto paper and it's okay. What of these things Like what's going on in there? I'll see if there's like a theme of maybe it's I can't do it and the theme is me saying that a million times in different words, it's okay and I will coach myself on that. Or I will go to my coach and be like, can you coach me on that? Because it's almost like we need to know where we are and what's going on for us in order to reduce that overwhelm. And I will try.
Speaker 2:And if I'm really overwhelmed and I'm feeling like I'm just really not thinking straight and I can't focus, I can't prioritize, I will do some exercises to get back into my body to really calm myself down, things like intraception or meditation, getting out into fresh air. Every time I'm like I'm too busy, I've got too much to do, and then I know 10 minutes outside I'm like, oh, I need to listen to this, the clarity that comes from stopping. So I always remind myself like, okay, slow down. I've got actually a blog post about that the other week, which is like basically slowing down in order to speed up. Because we all know what happens every time we try and do more and more and then we get really bloody stressed about it and then we end up making mistakes when it's actually it sounds counterproductive.
Speaker 2:But just stop for a bit, do something, get back into your body, calm yourself down, see what's going on in your brain, empty it all out onto paper and then make some choices about how you want to move forward rather than otherwise we end up like reacting to everything. So we want to get back to that space where we're responding rather than being reactive. But yeah, it's, and I think, overwhelms one of those things like it's. I don't know if you find this, but I think a lot of people think, because you're a coach, that you don't get overwhelmed, you don't get stressed, you don't need to shit about stuff. Oh, I do. I definitely don't do it as much as I do before I was a coach.
Speaker 1:But I would say I stay in in a much shorter amount of time. Exactly, yeah.
Speaker 2:Because you can spot it, you can witness what's going on and go oh, hang on. This is what I'm doing here, and it's not always easy, because sometimes you want to go no, it's everyone else's fault, but really it's. It's so easy. It's not easy at all. It's so much quicker for us to go. Okay, I see what I'm doing here because we spend a lot of time basically helping other people with that, holding a mirror up to them Definitely not as easy to do it for yourself. Yeah, that's a great way to put it. You don't spend as much time in it anymore. It's like you. You can catch yourself quicker and move through it quicker. But also, I don't know what you think, but I feel like that is.
Speaker 2:I see this as one of, like, my superpowers as a coach. I am always very much like. I am human. I still make mistakes, I still learn things, and the thing is, I think that is what I bring to my clients as well. I did this thing, I experienced that. Well, it's not always helpful if we're like going oh my God, that's so awful, I can't believe you went through that. Actually, I think being human and going, yeah, I've been there and I've been through that. So what should we do about that? And actually acknowledging the fact that we're all always learning and I'm not too proud to say there's things that come up on certain projects which are like, oh shit, I didn't think about that, but really awesome about it is okay, that will never happen again because I've just learned and also I can share that with my clients so they don't make that mistake. And it's always good to be having like making new mistakes and new problems, because that means you're growing Absolutely and I'm never too proud to say that I still. I'm still learning all the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, and I wouldn't want it any other way. Honestly, yeah, how do you deal with and do you do this with your clients, helping them understand the feeling uncomfortable as an entrepreneur and building your business? It doesn't really ever go away. Yeah, I was working with a client recently. I'm like this is what we're doing here. You'll build up a higher tolerance for it and you'll realize it's not a problem. You'll realize it's not a reason to stop, but it doesn't go away.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I think that's a good way of putting it about building up a tolerance for it, because I think as we get more experienced and as we start to understand our own minds and our own growth and our own journeys, we can look at it like okay, this is actually part of the process and this is always going to be part of the process. This isn't an interruption to the process, this is just a process. So I think it's moving into a space of acceptance and going okay, this is actually a part of being an entrepreneur, this is actually part of the journey and it doesn't stop. Because what I was saying a minute ago, if you're having the same problem all the time, that kind of is a problem because it means, okay, you're not working through it. But what we want actually is entrepreneurs and creatives. We want to be having new problems, because it shows that we're growing and we're developing and we're changing.
Speaker 2:When we start to realise that, actually, these challenges that come up are part of the process and we accept that it's no longer a problem for us, we're probably not going to be like over the moon with these challenges because ultimately, as humans, our brains want the path of leaf resistance. They want it to be easy. We can handle it in a very different way, I think, for a lot of people who are starting out, very often what they do is they make it mean these challenges mean something about them and go I'm not meant to do this. This is really hard, but we want to shift that to do you know what? This is part of the process and I've just figured out all of those things. I can definitely figure this out, and that's when we start to build up that tolerance.
Speaker 2:So I think that's a really key point of that's how we do. It is by actually building that resilience, and that resilience comes from knowing oh why, why am I doing this in the first place? What does this mean to me? That's going to give us that staying power. So when all these challenges come up, we go okay, this is part of the process. I know why I'm doing this. This means something to me and we keep on repeating that. We rinse and repeat, but I think it's removing ourselves from it and not making it mean we share what we're doing or we're not meant to do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, two things came up while you were saying that. One is I find, now that I have more insight, that when I come up against that, I'm feeling very uncomfortable. It means that I'm pushing my limits, which means that I'm moving in a direction that I want to go in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, definitely, I think that's it. That's a really good way to offer yourself reassurance of actually the road sign.
Speaker 1:Yes, this is the right direction.
Speaker 2:Definitely, definitely, yeah, because if you weren't feeling that, you probably wouldn't be stretching into that new direction you want to go into, because any kind of growth there's going to be discomfort, and I think that's what we don't want to admit to ourselves normally is we want it to be easy? Course we do, but to get the result is going to be uncomfortable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because it's a tricky thing because people who are artists are creating something. You come to this work because you have a passion for it, you love it, it's very tied into our identity and then when you want to make it turn it into a business, it can take a little bit of that joy from it, because it's work like you're working. And I think I have found that's when clients are like oh, this doesn't feel like I thought it would because I paint or whatever your creative passion is, because it feels so good to me, and then when it starts not feeling that way, it almost signals to your brain that something has gone wrong. But it's just. You have to shift how you're thinking about it. So how do you find that? How do you deal with that? Has that happened to you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, it really does, because I think it's a totally different set of skills that is required to be a business owner and trippin' versus when you're being like, like what you're saying, when you're just doing it for the joy of it. It's totally different. You show up when you want to show up, you finish things when you want to finish it. You get really excited. I still get excited about creating now, but I also know there's those parts of the project which actually I don't completely love, which is normally the bits where it's like the planning stages and getting all the things signed off and it's like I just want to go and create it. But what I've realized, like in order to make a living from what I do and it not just to be a hobby, that is actually part of the package and that's what I choose. And obviously, in the eyes of doing it, you can be an artist and you just you don't create a commission, you just create how you want to create. But then you're still going to have that process of selling, Even if you decide actually I'm not dealing with the sales gallery is you still need to have a conversation with the gallery and the logistics or that side of it For me.
Speaker 2:I love working with brands and there is normally a lot of work on the front end of the prep time, getting things signed off like prototypes, mockups, all of that sort of thing, which isn't necessarily my favorite bit. I just love the making bit. But how I approach it is okay. If I, in order to have this, it's like the Yin and the Yang, the light and the dark, like we always have that balance, the 50-50,. There's always part of it which may not be the bit which is the most exciting, but I'm like, okay, in order for me to work with these like amazing brands, galleries, one of these really exciting commissions, there's this bit first which I have to get through and I choose to do that and I think it's coming back to what I said earlier is knowing what is a choice and going okay in order for this, in order to get this result, I know I need to go through this part of it.
Speaker 2:So I always look at everything like it's all a 50-50, it's all that balance of the light and the dark. Without the, I was getting this the wrong way around. Without the dark, we can't experience the light, and that's how I look at it and it doesn't mean that I suddenly love those parts of the project, but I'm more in a space of acceptance and more at peace about it. But I really think running a business is it is a different set of skills and it requires something so different to just creating. So that is why in my coaching I always look at like the mindset side of things and strategy, because it is like there are things that we can do which are going to speed up our success.
Speaker 2:That's gonna get us more people, get us seen by more people and, yeah, more inquiries, like all of these things. There are so many things we can do. So it really is. I think it is learning that skill and learning okay, how do I market my business, because most of us as artists we don't realize we're signing up to that as well, and I would just want to reassure people and say you're not alone in this. They're probably the majority of artists. I don't want to say probably a lot. Let's say maybe not the majority don't particularly absolutely love the business side of creating something. I actually really enjoy the business side of it I agree with you.
Speaker 2:That's something I've always been interested in, but I don't think most people get into it because they just love creating, and so I don't think it's being patient with yourself.
Speaker 1:And it's okay for it to be a hobby. I think some people have some shame about not creating, turning it into this wildly successful business. And it's okay to do it because you love doing it, definitely yeah, there's no shame in that at all.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I couldn't agree more, because it's also do you want to make it into a business and make money out of it, or is this other people's ideas? Do you think you should so really taking in with yourself there and going? I don't want this to be something which I just do in my free time and there's no admin around it and there's no. I just go and create and I think, yeah, take full ownership of that, because I think that is amazing, like I love that. But I think you're right, a lot of people feel that pressure and especially with, like, social media and things and how it's like whenever we create, there has to be I need to use it for this, I need to. If I've created it, I need to share it. We don't, we can just create for the sake of creating.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, yeah, yeah, and there's such beauty in that too Definitely, definitely. Do you ever have clients that have decided they've made the decision that they want to create a business, or they've gotten a little bit of traction and they're like, okay, yes, I wanna move forward and reach another level or another goal? And then you start talking about the things that practically need to happen in order to do that. They're like, yeah, I don't wanna do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all the time, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's normally that seems to happen when, like I've had clients who have had, they've experienced some success and they may not have done like a huge amount of promotion to that success and they've not necessarily done any intentional marketing or anything like that, and then they want to continue that success and they want to repeat it. It's. Then there's often that stage of sometimes it's resistance and very often it's resistance because it's like I didn't have to do that before, so it's. And then again it comes back to what I'm saying about okay, what do you choose? And also there is gonna be discomfort. There's always gonna be discomfort on this journey. So, really, looking at that and going, okay, it's okay if you don't want it. But a lot of the time people do want it.
Speaker 2:It's just that initial oh, it's scary, it's new, I don't wanna do it and I still do this with stuff. I want that result. And then when I look at the process, I'm like, oh God, I gotta learn that, which is good because then I can really relate to them when they're there. And what I normally do is like really just, I can normally tell when someone is saying it, they oh, it's gonna be really hard and I don't wanna do it. I can normally tell when it's a. This doesn't feel aligned and I don't wanna do it or it will be primitive brain. I don't wanna do this because it feels like normally you can tell which is-.
Speaker 1:It's normally the latter.
Speaker 2:Exactly, yeah, if it's not aligned, then I always say don't do it, change your plan, don't do it.
Speaker 1:I do too. I'm like I will never force anyone to do anything they don't wanna do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if your gut is saying no, listen to that, always listen to that. Yeah, I think that's the biggest thing is just what is your intuition telling you, and about a lot of the time it's primitive brain going this is hard. Oh, sorry, that's okay, yeah, and then that's. I feel like then that's my job to guide my clients through that and help them navigate that, because it's uncomfortable.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, and that's when you have to start getting really creative with thinking of other solutions. Okay, you don't wanna take this path towards that goal, so let's, you've really got to start thinking about what are all the other ways that might be possible to get you there, because there's a bajillion ways to get there, there's not just one. So, yeah, I find it to be very similar. Yeah, I'm sure one thing people want me to ask you about is how do you work with all these amazing brands?
Speaker 2:Oh, I think really it's consistency and showing up and creating Like I think it's. Over the years, I feel like I have always and it's not always an easy but I've always committed to creating good work and working with, like, really great photographers and having that idea in my mind of what I want my work to look like, what, how I want people to feel when they see my work. So early on, I spent quite a lot of time working with photographers on self-initiated projects, so I'd have an idea and then I would collaborate and I always had this sense that I want my work to, because most of it is textiles or knitted. I do work in other materials as well, but the majority these days is the knitted work and textiles. I think there's some very. When you think of knitting, it's like very twi and very yeah, and it's very like feminine craft and all of that and I really wanted to flip that on its head.
Speaker 2:So I really put the time into creating work that basically, I wanted to get commissions and I was like no one's really doing this kind of work. I need to show these brands and these agencies and these clients what I can do for them. So I need to put it in front of them. So I work with a lot of photographers and got things shot how I wanted it, so it didn't look cutesy and twi and all of that. Then when I took those images, I would reach out and this is the thing, and I think people very often want there to be like a different answer to this.
Speaker 2:But really it's consistency reaching out to people and having that kind of that self-trust of do you know what? Because I really did put myself and I still do put myself out there and really thinking I can get rejected at any point. Now, like I do it all the time, I still reach out to companies now that I think I'd love to work with them and people can say no and people can ignore you and all that. But it's being willing to put yourself in that position where you might be rejected. But I really think it is consistency in creating, sharing that, telling people about it, contacting the brands and companies you wanna work with and going hey, this is what I do. Can we meet for coffee or can we do a Zoom call or can I send you something.
Speaker 2:That is really what I've done over the years. Now I've done quite a lot of work, I would say most of it is like word of mouth. People will see my stuff and be like, oh, that's the girl that did that for that. But I still. Now, if there's a brand I want to work with, I will send an email and be like hey, can we meet for coffee? This is what I've done in the past. I will mention some of the brands I've worked for before because I think if you've done work with brands that you're proud of, if you're in that position, if you're at that point in your career, use that you know it's oh absolutely.
Speaker 2:To trust you because they go okay, she's worked with them. That's awesome. I know when you're starting out you don't always have that, but that's why I'm like have these images, have some work that you're already proud of and share that, and so this is what I can do for you. Would you like to have a coffee, or can I send you something in the mail? Yeah, I would say there's no one way, but that would be. That's how I started. Still do it now sometimes If there's a brand that I'm like do you know what really wanna work with them, essentially cold calling, yeah, yeah, and it feels uncomfortable with hell sometimes.
Speaker 1:I was gonna ask you how do you deal with rejection, and is it different now than it was when you first started out?
Speaker 2:Do you know what I would say? Rejection? These days looks like someone not emailing back. So if I contacted like a brand I want to work with, do you know what? It's really rare that someone will email and go your work isn't for us. I'm sure that's what lots of people have thought. But actually, you know, I should certainly spend that much time on it and sometimes I am quite like I'll just try again. They just haven't seen it yet. I have. I normally have a limit where I'm like okay, I've emailed three times like I'm done now, but most of the time you reach out you might not hear something. And then I'll send a follow up a couple of weeks later and be like hey, just checking in.
Speaker 2:I have had some of the best jobs because I've done that like one of my favorite jobs. I sent an email to be like hey, I'd love to work with you, and I didn't hear back and I was like I'm going to send them a Christmas card. And I had. I made the this like knitted scene. It was a really fun Christmas dinner and I did some for the US as well, because you guys have different stuff over there. Do you have a corn on the cob on your Christmas dinner. Is it corn on the cob?
Speaker 1:No, not really.
Speaker 2:Oh no, thanksgiving, Thanksgiving, that's what I'm thinking.
Speaker 1:Maybe it's not a staple in the Thanksgiving menu that I'm aware of? Maybe it wasn't that actually there was something else.
Speaker 2:I can't remember.
Speaker 1:You mean like a cornucopia, what is that there?
Speaker 2:we go. What is it? Cornucopia? I'm dying to explain this.
Speaker 1:It's like this looks like a horn within, there's like stuff in it. I'm going to Google it. I have no idea what you're talking about.
Speaker 2:But that was not what I meant. Oh my gosh, I'm really happy. How do you spell it?
Speaker 1:For C O R N U C O P I A. No one cares about this, hang on. I've never seen that before. Anyway, go on.
Speaker 2:What was the question you asked? Again, that was it. I'll start there a bit. I would always recommend following up. We did really well not to do this to this point.
Speaker 1:We did a really good job.
Speaker 2:Some of your favorite chops I really think when you have reached out to people, don't be afraid to follow up. Some of the really nice jobs that I've got have been because I have followed up. There was one project that I did a few years back and I sent them an email and I had been like I'd love to work with you guys and here's a link to my portfolio. Blah blah blah Didn't hear back. Then it was Christmas and I was like I'm going to send them a Christmas card and I'd created this really nice card and it was all a knitted scene that I got photographed and I think I got 100 of them printed and sent them out to people. I want to work with Great idea.
Speaker 2:By the way, I think people love to receive stuff, don't they? It was such a nice project and I think people just don't expect to get things in the post anymore. I got about 100 of them printed. I sent them to current clients and past clients. I got an email from an art director and he was like I'm so glad you sent me that card because I knew I had an email from you, but I'd forgotten your name and I couldn't find your email in my inbox. I got the most amazing job off the back of it I got. It was like a cover for a really popular magazine, I think I had about six or seven pages inside as well, and I got so many commissions then off of the back of that. That was all because I sent an email and then I sent a card. But sometimes I'll send an email, then another email and then people will be like oh, I'm so glad you followed up.
Speaker 2:I normally have a limit in my head of, okay, this isn't aligned anymore and this isn't happening, but I will always just go okay, let's try, let's see, let's see what they say. I think that is a good. I've never seen that before. But yeah, I think that is always a really good thing to do, not being afraid to do that and I think that is really how I've got a lot of my commissions. And then once you start to get more, once you got that momentum, people start to find you. Then it's more about showing up and just being present, creating good work. But, yeah, I think, don't be afraid to reach out to people and always make it personal. Every time I reached out to somebody, it was never like a blanket kind of I'm sending this to 20 people. I really would love to collaborate with this person because of that, and I would keep it very personal and just will make sure it doesn't feel like an email I've sent to 100 other people.
Speaker 1:So yeah, it's funny the things that you said in there. This is so relevant because when I'm working with a client, it's like what are your goals? And sometimes it's to get my work in a gallery or to get work with designers, things like that. I'm like okay, so identify exercise I'll have them go through is identify the places you would like to, you feel would be a good fit for your work, and then you're going to reach out to them and oftentimes, when they either hear nothing or they get no one ever gets a reply. That's don't ever contact me again. How?
Speaker 2:dare you yeah?
Speaker 1:It's usually very lovely. We'll keep it in our files. Your work is great. It's not a great time, not a great fit. Whatever the stories that they make up about either not hearing back or getting that, it's not a good time. It's pretty remarkable that we allow ourselves to think that it means something very bad about who we are as a person, yeah, as a human being, which is normal, normal-ish, but it's it you're. I feel like maybe you're an outlier, that you were like okay, I'm not going to make that mean that my life is terrible, or they hate me, or all of those things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I probably am, and I know I'm not completely sure where that has come from maybe being slightly deluded or something. Yeah, and I think, as I've been coaching more like clients over the last couple of years God, probably longer than that, how long has it been now 2020. I can't believe that. How it's crazy. But, yeah, as I coach more and more clients, like what I have seen is there really is a pattern of clients making it mean something about them when they don't hit. And I do think I probably, yeah, am an outlier in that, in that kind of arena, because I was very much okay, I'll find another way, kind of thing. So it's almost okay, I didn't get in through that door, so I'm going to try this door. Now, what route is there? And I think probably everyone listening to this is a creative or an artist, or the majority it's your great at being creative, you can figure out another way. I've done it so many times where I'm like I'm just going to figure out another route. So, rather than make it mean something about me and my ability, I'm like, oh, I've just not taken the right route to get in yet. And sometimes it is oh, do you know what, Maybe, and I will reflect and go.
Speaker 2:If I was sending like 20 emails and I wasn't hearing back from any, I would look at my portfolio and be like, okay, is there something missing here? And then what's going to make it mean about something about me is okay. What are people looking for? What are we doing? Firstly, because that is at the heart of it, and then it's okay. What kind of work do I want to create? What people needing? What is this for editorial? Is this to go and hang on somebody's wall? Is this for gallery? Really making a plan and going.
Speaker 2:Okay, what is the purpose of what I'm creating? Is it just something beautiful or do I want it to be for, like TV ads to sell things that I want to create puppets for that or something or whatever it is, and like, okay, like, am I contacting the right person? Am I contacting them at the right time? Am I sending them the right links? Like just really looking at that, and so this is the practical side of it. So we've got the mindset it means nothing about me, it means nothing about my ability, and then looking at who and when we're sending it and our approach. So it's getting that balance. I think it's always that balance isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you do have to separate yourself from the work. Yeah, oh yeah, you're worth from the work, yeah.
Speaker 2:Which is tough. The context is untangling.
Speaker 1:It really can. It does take some untangling. Like when I first moved to Atlanta, I worked in a. I was a manager of an art gallery here for several years and we would get people just asking to be in the gallery all the time and my guess is it's still the same. Like I would really look through the work very thoughtfully, very mindfully, really evaluate. So it was a very intentional process, not just oh no, yeah, yeah, exactly, and I encourage people to know that when you are sending your work in, I would say the majority of people are probably giving it a lot of critical thought to see if it is a good fit and then replying or maybe not replying yeah, in a way, it was never. Like oh, that's ridiculous, what are they thinking? It was never that, yeah, Exactly.
Speaker 2:And isn't it funny, because what I often say to my clients is okay, if somebody showed you their work, what would you be thinking? Let's say what would. And they'd be like, oh, if it wasn't for me, I'd just be like, oh, it's not my thing, but it's cool by the thing. So I'm like so that's the weight and the level of what you give to it. And they're like, yeah, so why do you think that somebody else would look at your work and be like it's a horrendous. I can't believe she's email me. Oh yeah, oh yeah, Because that can be really helpful is to see it on the flip side.
Speaker 2:Sometimes we think these things because we're actually thinking it. Like if we're thinking, oh, people are going to be like this isn't thought out and it's really rushed. I will always say to my clients do you think this isn't thought out, Do you think it's really rushed? And sometimes the answer is yes, we project what we're thinking and that might be so anxious, and it's normally not. Until I ask them, they go oh, shit, yeah, I am thinking that.
Speaker 1:So yeah, and I know when it's rushed like I can feel it.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, we will be in there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly. And sometimes it has to go out the door with that feeling and it will still sell. And then sometimes the pieces that I'm like, oh my gosh, that felt so good. I'm so proud of this piece. It might sit there. Yeah, it's just because it's someone else viewing the work, putting their thoughts, feelings, memories, attachments to it. So once it goes out the door, we have to trust that the right people will find it Definitely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's the reason I think so much of this comes down to trust, trusting in that process, trusting if we keep showing up, we keep creating and we keep doing what feels aligned, we are going to get to where we want to be and being intentional with it, and not just waiting for the success to come to us.
Speaker 2:Because that is a big thing, actually, that I hear a lot and I was talking to a client about it the other day it was this week actually and she was saying to me she was like I really love what we talked about about not waiting to be discovered, because and it's so true like, as artists, we often feel like we have to wait to be discovered and I think that is the biggest load of shit that we are sold, because that has us being the struggling artist that has us living into that. Now, if we can change that narrative, then that is when everything is going to start to shift for us, because, oh, I can be that empowered, I can go out and create the future I want to create. I haven't got to wait for it, and I think that is the game changer, like I really think it is, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:What does self acceptance mean to you?
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a big one, that is a big one, oh right, I think self acceptance is like meeting yourself where you are and going okay, this is where I'm at, I'm not going to change. But it's like what I find is when I accept myself and where I am in my life, in my career, my decisions and things like basically what I've created so far in my life, it can really help me, like when I move out of that place of resistance. Sometimes, when you go through a phase when you might feel like things aren't quite right or you haven't achieved enough yet you haven't done that thing you said you're going to do, when we move into the place of self acceptance and we drop the resistance, that is when things can start to. We can start to create the changes that we want. So I think it will really.
Speaker 2:It can be really helpful because when we're resisting where we are or who we are or what we've done and achieved, we can really erode our sort of our self worth and then we don't go on to do the things we do, but when we can meet ourselves where we are and go, you know what I've done all this stuff and this is really awesome and I'm going to do more. And it's not always about doing. It can just be about feeling what do I think about myself, what is my opinion of myself? I think that can be getting to that place where you accept where you're at. That can be really quite a peaceful place to be and then, without rush, without pressure, we can decide to move forward or not, or just stay the same. That is okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a great answer, and I think too, if we are really honest with ourselves, we have way more evidence of being able to create success or wins or overcome challenges than we do, more evidence that we can do it than we can't. But it's maybe those few times in our life where it hasn't worked out. Those are the things we hang on to. So I love what you said to encourage us to look back and reflect on the times when we have figured things out. We have overcome all that. Yeah, yeah, that's really good. How do I celebrate my wins?
Speaker 2:How do I celebrate my wins? That's a good question. How do I celebrate my wins? I think actually what you just said it ties in with that. Very often I have to these days. I have to let me rephrase that how do I celebrate my wins, what I normally do now, because I feel like this is something that did not come naturally to me, and I think it's not just women, but I do find a lot of women struggle with this. We achieve things and we go. Okay, what's the next thing I need to do?
Speaker 1:Now.
Speaker 2:I make sure I pause and I actually give myself that, oh, hang on, I was there, I wanted to do this and I use my brain to create that thing that I now have, and it's like that, for me, feels so good, because I never used to do that. Just acknowledging it is huge for me rather than going right next. I think okay. But what I always do is I think of it like dog training. If you want a dog to sit, it's like you give it a treat and it's oh, you want me to do that. So with my brain, I am like well done, brain, you just did that thing. That thing didn't exist earlier. You had some thoughts, then you took some action, then you did it.
Speaker 2:I really am that basic that I actually do that. But I think that is the first thing is like acknowledging, because we just don't do that enough. And then normally there is a specific thing that I do. To be honest, there isn't actually anything Now that I'm thinking about it. It's just I'm pretty good now with managing to actually take time off. I never used to do that. Like a while back I would have been like, oh, give myself a day off as a reward, but now I'm like no days off are? They're non-negotiable, they're happening. I can't create if I'm not giving myself those days off. Yeah, that's a really good question that I don't really have a sufficient answer to other than going well done brain, well done. I'm really impressive to say.
Speaker 1:No, I think it is. I think maybe that's even harder than going to get a pedicure or whatever thing.
Speaker 2:that Well, I think I love to do all of those things. I like I put myself care most of the time. Not always it slips. Sometimes it's so good that I'm like, oh, I reward myself. I think I'm pretty good at rewarding myself.
Speaker 1:I've been really trying to leave Fridays open. Yeah, and if it's, I will do some work if I need to or not even I need to, but it feels like a choice and it feels so good, rather than I don't know, it's just a different vibe that I leave, trying really hard to leave Fridays open to just have more space to create or something bleeds over from the week. It's not a problem, that's been really nice.
Speaker 2:You know what I do? The same actually, which is why we could do this podcast today. I know I leave I try and leave Fridays open for like more fun stuff. It's rare I never coached on a Friday. It's rare that I have something on a Friday which I'm like oh yes, I'm doing this from this time to this time. So yeah, actually that's something that I've started to do and actually that wasn't all that intentional. It seems to have just naturally evolved that way that I just don't feel my calendar on that day it's a treat.
Speaker 1:It's a treat. This has been so good. We could talk for hours. Oh my God, we could so good, so good. Well, first of all, let me say thank you for sharing so wisely and openly with me and everyone else. So what do you want to share with people?
Speaker 2:So, if you'd like to find me, I'm on Instagram and my Instagram name is Jessica Dance underscore maker. Or you can go to my website, which is Jessica dancecom. And yeah, I've got a section on there for my coaching work and a section on there for my portfolio.
Speaker 1:It's great. So if people want to contact you for coaching or art or creating creating, they can go to your website and I'll put all of that in the show notes as well as the blog post you mentioned.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that sounds great, and so good.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for sharing your time, and it's always such a good time to see you. I love spending time with you. I need to come and see you now because you came with me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that trip. I loved coming to Atlanta. Yes, I need to come to London. That would be so much fun it's great, I will plan it. Thank you. Oh, it's so good to see you. Leigh Ann, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:Of course, anytime. Thank you so much for listening to Mind Over Medium podcast today. If you found the episode inspiring, please share it with a friend or post it on social media and tag me on Instagram at Leigh Ann Slotkin, or head to my website wwwleighannslotkincom to book a discovery call to find out more about working with me one on one. You can also head to my website to get a great tool I've created for you to use when planning your own online launch of your artwork. It's an exercise I've taken many of my coaching clients through and it's been very helpful. It's my way of saying thank you and keep creating.